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Guests:
Albert Mohler, Shmuley Boteach, Michael Brown, Don Teague, Mort Zuckerman,
James Zogby, Randy Cohen
PHIL DONAHUE, HOST: Good evening and
welcome to DONAHUE. Coming up later in the show, Martha Stewart turned over
documents to the House panel today. We’ll talk to the ethicist for “The
New York Times” magazine, who addresses America’s morals in decline.
What do you think?
We’ll also take a look at how the
Middle East is being used in the fight for congressional seats, right here
in this country.
But first up, “Newsweek” is talking
about it, so is the “Boston Globe.” Heaven, hell, who’s going and
who’s not? And last week, according to a statement issued by the U.S.
Conference of Catholic Bishops, Jews no longer have to be saved to get into
heaven. So now all we have to do is convince the southern Baptists.
Joining me are radio talk show host
Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. Dr. Michael Brown is president of an organization
known as Israel, the Church and the Nation Ministries. And from Louisville,
Kentucky, Dr. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological
Seminary.
Well, Dr. Mohler, sir, nice to see you
again. You’re how many strong these days, the southern Baptists?
REV. ALBERT MOHLER, SOUTHERN BAPTIST
MINISTER: About 16 million members, Phil, and about 40,000 churches. It’s
good to be with you tonight.
DONAHUE: Thank you. Do these 16 million
people believe Jews can go to heaven?
MOHLER: Southern Baptists, with other
Christians, believe that all persons can go to heaven who come to faith in
the Lord Jesus Christ. And there is no discrimination on the basis of ethnic
or racial or national issues, related to who will go to the Scriptures.
It’s those who are in Christ. The defining issue is faith in Christ.
DONAHUE: So a good Jew is not going to
heaven.
MOHLER: Well, all persons are sinners
in need of a savior. Jesus Christ is the sole mediator. And the gospel, we
are told by the Apostle Paul, comes first to the Jews and then to the
gentiles. And salvation is found in his name, and in his name alone, through
faith in Christ.
DONAHUE: So if a Nazi killed a Jew, a
good Jew, practicing Jew, the Jew goes to hell, but the Nazi still has a
chance to get to heaven. That would be the consequence of your position.
MOHLER: Well, the gospel is not just
for the worst of us. The gospel is for all of us. And the scripture tells us
the hard truth, that all have sinned. And that Nazi guard is going to be
punished for his sin, and it will be judged as sin. His only hope would be
the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And the profound truth of the gospel is
that the salvation that can come to any person who comes to faith in
Christ-can come to that Jew who was killed and to that guard who does the
killing. That’s the radical nature of the gospel.
DONAHUE: Well, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is
with us. You’re author of “Judaism For Everyone.”
You know, Reverend Mohler, this is such
a vast organization. You have so many wonderful members. This just breeds
anti-Semitism. I am sorry. You cannot possibly look a person in the eye and
say, if you don’t come to Jesus, if you don’t change your faith,
you’re not going to heaven. Reeks of prejudice, and also stirs the soul to
evil behavior, in my opinion.
MOHLER: Well, if the church had just
come up with this in the 20th century as a novel idea, perhaps it should be
subjected to such a critique. But this is the gospel that has been received
from the Lord Jesus Christ himself, who said he came, first of all, for the
people and children of Israel, and then also for the gentiles.
And he himself declared that he is the
way, the truth and the light, and no man comes to the Father but through
him. He spoke as a man born of the Jewish race, but who was also the son of
God.
DONAHUE: Well, three cheers for the
Catholic bishops. And it’s been a while since anybody has given them
cheers.
Well, Rabbi, it took us long enough,
but we are no longer calling upon our faithful, Catholic faithful, to
evangelize and convert the Jews. Praise the lord for that, whichever lord
may be your favorite.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR,
“JUDAISM FOR EVERYONE”: Amen. John Paul II is one of the great friends
of the Jewish people. Christians are our brothers and sisters, but they have
to finally acknowledge that there is a 2,000-year repulsive, malignant
history of the church, of trying to spiritually annihilate Jews by removing
every last Jew on the face of the earth and converting them to Christianity
and Jesus.
And Reverend Mohler, however
intelligent of a scholar he may be, he is a spiritual Neanderthal with
repulsive, revolting views. Because we know in history that Christian,
anti-Judaism has always led to racial anti-Semitism. This is the modern
equivalent, Phil, of spiritual terrorism.
You know, I have something to read
here, which is possibly unbelievable, written by my colleague sitting to my
left. “How then should we view the state of those Jews and gentiles who
have never heard about the messiah and savior? We should see them as people
about to get on a plane we know will soon crash.”
Now, it’s remotely possible one or
two will survive, but the vast majority are going to die. If you’re a Jew
who rejects Jesus, you’re going to die!
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Go ahead.
BOTEACH: Now, you would think that we
just would have progressed to some sort of racial harmony and tolerance,
especially after September 11.
DONAHUE: Doctor-you speak of Dr.
Michael Brown, president of ICN ministries. Well, Dr. Brown, sir, you were
born a Jew, raised by, I understand, liberal Jewish parents on Long Island?
MICHAEL BROWN, JEWISH BELIEVER IN
CHRIST: That’s right.
DONAHUE: Do they survive, your parents?
BROWN: My dad died in 1977, my mom is
turning 80.
DONAHUE: She’s got to be
broken-hearted.
BROWN: She’s sitting right now
watching this and rooting for me.
DONAHUE: She is?
BROWN: Oh, yes.
DONAHUE: You converted her to
Christianity?
BROWN: My goal is not to convert Jews
to Christianity. My goal is to get Jews, gentiles, to recognize who Jesus
is. See, there is something that Shmuley said that’s so wild and so
preposterous.
Listen: “Jesus came as a Jew to
fulfill what was written in ‘Moses and the Prophets.’” If he did it,
Jews should believe in him. If not, throw the whole thing out. If Jesus is
not for Jews, he’s not for anybody. The whole thing is a mockery.
And what about Hindus? Should we not
preach to Hindus because they have to change their faith? What about
Muslims?
DONAHUE: Yes, what about them? Did
Gandhi go to heaven?
BROWN: I’m not Gandhi’s judge, but
if Gandhi rejected Jesus, he’s not good enough to get in. You’re not
good enough, I’m not good enough. We need help. We need salvation.
DONAHUE: And I think you’re
suggesting that the rabbi should be grateful that somebody is trying to
bring Jesus to him? Do I understand your position?
BROWN: Listen, I’ve written
extensively about the horrible history of anti-Semitism in the church.
That’s a complete aberration. Just like Goldstein killing Muslims is an
aberration of Judaism, OK? And someone once said that the 9/11 bombers, some
Muslims would say that’s an aberration of Islam.
DONAHUE: But you’re telling Jews
they’re not going to heaven.
BROWN: I’m telling Hindus, I’m
telling gentiles, I’m telling Catholics, I’m telling Protestants...
BOTEACH: He’s an equal-opportunity
offender. You know, if Jesus were alive today, I think he would take
Reverend Mohler and Dr. Brown to court for character assassination. They
took the prince of peace and made him into the torturer in chief. They took
someone who was supposed to redeem, you know, the world, and made him
someone who demeans mankind.
They have made Jesus into someone who
sits in the heavens as some sort of blackmailer in chief-I’m going to
torture you, fry you in a wok, murder you, all because you don’t believe
in me, irrespective of how you behave, Phil. And that’s an abomination.
DONAHUE: Yes. You also have God kind of
being an egomaniac. You’d better pray to me or I’ll show you what
trouble really is. I don’t see God as a Santa Claus who rewards good and
punishes evil. It seems to me, your position, Dr. Mohler, is very unfair to
God.
MOHLER: Well, all I know is that
God’s word, the scripture, tells us the authoritative message about who
God is and what he would intend, and this issue of a one, true and living
god.
And one way of salvation didn’t even
wait for Jesus in the New Testament. God declared this to Moses in the
covenant at Sinai. He spoke very much about the fact that there was an
order, to have no gods before him. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of that
law.
DONAHUE: Right. More on heaven and
hell, when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: We are talking about heaven
and hell, who’s going, who’s not. My guests are Michael Brown, who was
raised Jewish and now calls himself a Christian and works to, how do we say
this, convert the Jews?
Also Shmuley Boteach is here, a rabbi.
And Albert Mohler has been introduced for what he is, the president of the
Southern Baptists Theological Convention.
Well, I have to say, gentlemen, the
statement by the Catholic bishops, the U.S. Catholic Bishops’ conference,
saying that they will-Catholics should no longer try to evangelize Jewish
people, is a huge story that I thought got very little attention.
It really is the brotherhood,
sisterhood that we’re looking for all around the globe. I’ll respect
your religion, Reverend Mohler, if you respect mine. But please don’t tell
me that you know what’s good for me. There’s an arrogance to that.
And if you suggest that you’re going
to heaven and I’m not, you’re going to feel better than me. You’re up
here and I’m down here, and this is the beginning of the Crusades, of all
the terrible things that have-more havoc in the name of the prince of peace
than anybody else on earth.
You’re on the air, Reverend Mohler.
MOHLER: Well, all I know is that the
only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, and that all who are there come
by his grace and mercy alone. There is nothing in us to merit salvation. And
so humility has to be the Christian posture.
DONAHUE: There is nothing humble about
telling me I’m going to heaven if I don’t believe in Jesus. That is not
humility. That’s arrogance.
MOHLER: It would be if this was our
message. But if that is what the son of God said himself, if that is the
truth, then it would be hateful and it would be intolerant not to tell you
what we believe to be the truth. I can’t compel any person to believe in
Christ, but I do have the responsibility, with gladness and joy, to share
the good news of the gospel, knowing that all who believe in the Lord Jesus
Christ shall be saved, whether Jew or gentile.
BOTEACH: Reverend Mohler, are you
allowed to think? Because you sound like a broken record. You have been
repeating this mantra since the show started. Now, does your religion allow
for independent thought? Are you allowed to have a heart? Can you feel for
people?
Do you know that Jews have been turned
into lamp shades and bars of soap and ashes? We’ve been stuffed into
ghettos. We’ve been burned at the state because of your repulsive,
nauseating views. When are you going to finally allow your humanity to shine
forth through your Christianity? Because you are becoming...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Rabbi...
BOTEACH: You are showing such revolting
views, you are a liability to Christianity.
DONAHUE: Let’s let Dr. Brown make his
case here, please.
You joined us late. I say respectfully,
you’re a nice Jewish boy from Long Island.
BROWN: I’m still Jewish.
DONAHUE: And your mother survives
today. You tell us she’s 80.
BROWN: Yes.
DONAHUE: And you’re trying to convert
all your Jewish friends to Christianity.
BROWN: No, I’m not.
BOTEACH: He’s lonely!
BROWN: I’m not. There are tens of
thousands of us.
BOTEACH: What do you need us for?
BROWN: Because I love you and I care
about you.
BOTEACH: You love me so I have to be
like you? Does your wife have to put on trousers and a jock strap because
you love her too? Do I have to be, like, a Nazi blonde-haired, blue-eyed, in
order for you to love me?
DONAHUE: Dr. Brown...
BROWN: Let me say this rationally.
DONAHUE: Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... you know better than that.
Listen, very simply, you want to respect my faith? The core of my faith is
that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and we have to go tell
everybody.
It’s like me telling you, I respect
your political views but you can’t be liberal. I respect you being a Jew,
but you can’t believe in one god. To tell me you respect my faith but I
can’t tell anyone-that’s the whole thing of it, is to tell the good
news. There’s a way out.
DONAHUE: You can tell me about it. But
you can’t stand there righteously and tell me you know what’s good for
me. And you sure as hell can’t tell me that there’s only one way for me
to get to heaven. Nobody is that smart, nobody.
BROWN: You tell people every day your
views, what’s good for America.
DONAHUE: But I don’t insist they
believe in them.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: ... burn in hell, for
goodness’ sake! He doesn’t say that there’s a god who’s going to
subject them to eternal punishment for being a conservative or a Republican,
for goodness’ sake.
You’re saying that we are the enemies
of God. That we Jews have the mark of Satan branded on us because we
rejected...
BROWN: I’m not saying that.
BOTEACH: Of course you are! Your book
is replete with anti-Semitic stereotypes. The Jews are rebellious, the Jews
are going to be punished. The Jews have always been punished. You even...
BROWN: Those are the words of the
prophets...
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: You even insinuate that the
Holocaust, that Hitler was a messenger of God to punish us for the rejection
of Jesus. And that is nauseating and stomach-turning, for goodness’ sake.
DONAHUE: I think we ought to...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: You wanted to say?
Well, Reverend Mohler, you’re
engaging in a little humility yourself. We appreciate your allowing us to
have the time here. You’re first when we come back.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Reverend Mohler, hold on a
second. You’re first. We have to do some of Caesar’s work here. And
we’ll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: We’re back, talking about
heaven and hell, who’s going, who’s not. When I get there, I’m looking
for all three of you. You’ll be the first ones I’m looking for.
We are with Michael Brown, Rabbi
Shmuley Boteach and Albert Mohler. Well, I promised you, Reverend Mohler,
president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, you’d get the
first shot. What is it you wanted to say, sir?
MOHLER: Well, Mr. Donahue, I want to
say, first of all, I want to thank you for giving time to such an important
question.
But I want to speak to the rabbi and
say that, in humility, you need to know that I am fully aware that neither
the Roman Catholic bishops nor the leaders of the Southern Baptist
Convention have any power to send any soul to heaven or to hell.
The question comes down to what the
gospel really is. And what you assaulted in your language there is classical
Christianity, as taught by the apostles and handed down by the church. I
believe that God has a distinctive purpose for the Jewish people, and the
Christians are called to be friends to all. And especially to the Jewish
people with sense of indebtedness.
At the same time, we are to bear
witness to the gospel, believing that God is going to do a remarkable thing
in bringing many, many Jewish persons to faith in Christ, just as my brother
Michael is, there in the studio with you.
DONAHUE: OK, Rabbi?
BOTEACH: Reverend Mohler, with all due
respect, you are guilty of nailing Jesus to the cross. You have nailed him
to the cross of intolerance, of racism, of spiritual Nazism. You are
disgracing your church through your utter condemnation of perfectly moral,
ethical people.
The Jewish community is righteous and
charitable. Stop telling us we’re going to go to hell. And you know
nothing about Jesus. He was a Jew. Stop making him into an anti-Semite. You
are the one who’s tarred him with the brush of people who hate his own
people.
If Jesus were alive today, he would
shed more blood when he sees the suffering of the Jews at the hands of
intolerant Christians like yourself. You should be ashamed of yourself and
it’s time that you finally change.
Because this is an embarrassment.
DONAHUE: You wanted to say, Dr. Brown?
BROWN: Let me say that Dr. Mohler was
exactly right, represented Jesus the Jew plainly. You see, Jesus knew that
there’s a coming judgment. You know, someone commits a crime in this
world, we think it’s good that there are judges and courts. We’re going
to be accountable for our actions, every one of us.
DONAHUE: Incidentally, you probably
believe in original sin, don’t you?
BROWN: Not in the way the Catholic
Church would teach it. But we’re a fallen race. We’re a fallen race.
DONAHUE: What’s the fall? I’m born,
I’m innocent, and I’ve got an original sin? I fell? How can I fall?
BROWN: We’re a messed-up race.
DONAHUE: Messed up. All right.
BROWN: Look at the state of the world.
Look at the state of the Middle East. Look at the state-from ethnic
cleansing to genocide...
DONAHUE: But how did this happen to
you, Dr. Brown? We should know more about Jesus. This is interesting. Were
you bar mitzvahed?
BROWN: Yes, I was.
DONAHUE: And you’re married?
BROWN: Yes, I am.
DONAHUE: Did you marry a shiksa?
BROWN: My wife is a Jewish believer in
Jesus, like me.
DONAHUE: A Jewish believer in Jesus.
BROWN: Here’s what happened...
BOTEACH: Somewhere in the middle.
BROWN: I was 16 years old, playing
drums in a rock band. And the whole counterculture, rebellion scene, heavily
into drugs. I just wanted to live an immoral, godless lifestyle. I was
shooting heroin at 15. And Christians were kind enough to pray for me and
put up with my nonsense until the light went on. And my life was radically
changed. Was that a good thing, or should I be back shooting heroin?
BOTEACH: Well, that’s a good
question. Are you better off shooting heroin or believing that Hitler was an
agent of god to punish the Jews for rejecting Christ? I’m not sure.
BROWN: I never said or wrote that,
Shmuley.
BOTEACH: You absolutely say in your
book that God punished the Jews of the Holocaust for rejecting Jesus. And
you said the Jewish grandmothers were all sitting there. I’d like to
believe my grandmother has a knish in heaven somewhere, but unfortunately
she’s in the barbecue.
DONAHUE: Jewish grandmothers go to
you-know-what? They go down, not up, huh?
BROWN: Jewish, gentiles grandmothers,
grandfathers, are not good enough without Jesus.
DONAHUE: Only seconds left, Reverend
Mohler. I thank you for joining us. Did you want to sign off with an amen or
a mazal tov? It’s up to you.
MOHLER: I appreciate my brother
Michael’s witness. All I know is to repeat the words said by a Jewish man
who came to know the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Peter. I am not ashamed
of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God, the salvation to all
who believe. To the Jews first, and also to the gentiles.
DONAHUE: Thank you all very much.
We’ll be back in just a moment.
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